Stop the Self-Judgment Shame Cycle: For Perfectionists Who Tend to Be Hard on Themselves [Podcast Transcript]

Title: Stop the Self-Judgment Shame Cycle: For Perfectionists Who Tend to Be Hard on Themselves

Podcast Date: June 9, 2026

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Description 

Are you tired of shouldering the weight of impossible standards and harsh self-judgment? This week on the podcast, Shannon Popkin returns for an honest conversation about judging—especially the way perfectionists measure themselves with a critical, merciless scoop.

In this compassionate and insightful episode, you’ll hear:
- Why “judge not” is more nuanced than you might think, and how the Bible calls us to both discernment and humility.
- How the standards we use to judge ourselves often seep into our perception of others—even when we think we’re showing only ourselves the harshness.
- The trap of perfectionism: when striving to be flawless turns into wounded pride and a subtle resistance to receiving grace.
- The difference between external rule-keeping and the biblical invitation to “walk with God”—not just check every box.
- How admitting our need for mercy—rather than clinging to “good girl” status—actually brings us closer to Jesus and frees us from the courtroom in our heads.
- A vulnerable story of how Shannon realized she’d been harshly judging a friend’s motives, and the freedom that came with confession and restored relationship.

Resources & Next Steps:

- Check out Shannon's latest book here: Kinda Judgy on Amazon (Amazon affiliate link)
- Take Shannon’s “Kind of Judgy” Quiz and download the heart check at: http://shannonpopkin.com/judgy
- Explore stories from Shannon’s new book for practical ways to deal with self-judgment and embrace mercy!
- Share this episode with a friend who struggles to be gentle with herself!

**Let this episode be your invitation to step out of self-condemnation, walk in mercy, and embrace the freeing truth of the gospel—for yourself, not just everyone else.**

Listen now for hope and honest insight!

Transcript

Disclaimer: This transcript is AI-generated and has not been edited for accuracy or clarity.

Heather Creekmore [00:00:00]:

Shannon Popkin, I'm so happy to have you back on the Compare to podcast.

Shannon Popkin [00:00:06]:

It's great to be back.

Heather Creekmore [00:00:07]:

Today we're talking about something, I don't know. Do people like to talk about this? Are you a little bit judgy? I feel like I'm not judgy at all. And then sometimes I'm like, oh, that was totally judgy. So today we're going to talk about that.

Shannon Popkin [00:00:24]:

That's exactly right. I think it is something we don't really talk about. We do it in our heads or maybe with a trusted friend who's going to chime in, know and judge with us and agree. Yeah, yeah. But it's not something we talk about enough, I think.

Heather Creekmore [00:00:37]:

So let's just start with the basics.

Shannon Popkin [00:00:39]:

Okay.

Heather Creekmore [00:00:40]:

Because I feel like I've heard this a lot. You know, my husband has taught sermons on. On the Matthew passage. But it's like in Christendom at large, culturally, people are like, we're not supposed to judge. Do not judge. The Bible says, do not judge. Is that actually true?

Shannon Popkin [00:00:58]:

Well, it is and it isn't. You know, because look at Jesus said both. He said, do not judge, and he said, judge with righteous judgment. So it's got to be a little nuanced then.

Heather Creekmore [00:01:10]:

Right?

Shannon Popkin [00:01:11]:

Right. And I think the world is wanting to say right now, don't judge. You know, that's your commandment. Don't judge. And what they mean is, like, erase all those lines between right and wrong so that we can just, like, link arms and be, like, create this judgy, free utopia already. Like, can we please just stop all the judgment and the, you know, the condescending superiority? And so for that last part, yes, let's please stop all the condescending superiority. But as Christians, it's not our place, is it, to erase those lines between right and wrong? And so I think it's been, like, conflated into something that is. That's not what Jesus is saying in the Sermon on the Mount.

Shannon Popkin [00:01:54]:

And I mean, even just look at what he says. You know, he says, do not. This is Matthew 7. Do not judge so that you will not be judged, for you will be judged by the same standard, but through which you judge others. And you'll be measured by the same measure that you use. And then he goes into that whole, like, get the splinter out of your eye thing.

Heather Creekmore [00:02:15]:

Right?

Shannon Popkin [00:02:16]:

And then. But look at that. He says, hypocrite. First take the. The beam of wood out of your eye. Then you will be able to see clearly, to take the Splinter out of your other, your brother's eye. So the point is not to just get that splinter out and, and stop judging. The point is to get the splinter out so that I can see clearly to help somebody else with their sin otherwise.

Shannon Popkin [00:02:39]:

And, and so repeatedly, I think with the do not judge is a warning about hypocrisy. And so what is hypocrisy? Well, that's judging you for the thing I'm doing right now, I'm doing exactly the same thing. And that's really, I think what we could maybe categorize, this is a command, but it's really coupled with a warning, you know.

Heather Creekmore [00:03:02]:

Yeah, yeah, that's really good. And I think it's just really good for people to hear. Like, I mean, if you actually read past, you know, judge not, he does say for the way, you know, whatever measure you use to judge will be. So it's like, wait, wait, he said don't judge and then you're, you're gonna judge. So.

Shannon Popkin [00:03:21]:

Yeah, yeah. And exactly.

Heather Creekmore [00:03:23]:

And then thinking about fruit, right? Like we're supposed to judge.

Shannon Popkin [00:03:26]:

That's further on in that passage. Like. Yeah. And so it talks about, let's see, be on your guard against false prophets. They come in sheep clothing and you're supposed to recognize people by their fruit, which in other words, you're supposed to judge them by the fruit of their lives. Like there are people who aren't who they say they are. They are hypocrites. Right.

Shannon Popkin [00:03:48]:

And so you have to have, you know, a discernment and be able to judge who they actually are based on their fruit. You're going to recognize them by their fruit. But back to that earlier part where you were talking about whatever you use to measure out your judgment, or I like to turn it and say whatever your, whatever size scoop you're going to measure your mercy with. So I've got these two like scoop sizes here.

Heather Creekmore [00:04:11]:

Okay.

Shannon Popkin [00:04:12]:

You know, those who are on, on YouTube can see, but like I've got a big normal size scoop, you know, that you might scoop out like in a candy jar or something.

Heather Creekmore [00:04:21]:

And I've got this itty bitty teeny little.

Shannon Popkin [00:04:24]:

A 30 second. Yeah, one. Yeah. Of a teaspoon. Very teeny tiny. And so, yeah, I think it's a good question to ask ourselves, like, what am I going to use when someone has wronged me? How am I going to respond? Am I going to just like scoop out judgment with this huge scoop? Or, you know, thinking of mercy? What if I scooped that? Like what in whatever size I Choose is the. What the Lord is going to use. You know, he's just not okay with hypocrisy.

Shannon Popkin [00:04:52]:

And so I think keeping that in mind is really helpful and really important.

Heather Creekmore [00:04:56]:

Yeah, that's really good. And I don't know, I don't know how much you've, like, thought about this angle or maybe you have even written about it, but thinking like, I talked to him and all the time they're like, oh, no. Like, I give grace to other people all the time. Like I'm, you know, I totally. I don't judge people. It's just myself. It's myself. Like the scoop when I like, measure myself is, you know, heaps of, you know, judgment.

Heather Creekmore [00:05:26]:

And I always kind of challenge them. I'm like, I don't, like, I hear

Shannon Popkin [00:05:29]:

you saying that, but I don't know

Heather Creekmore [00:05:30]:

if that's actually true because. Because the standard that we hold to ourselves to a lot of times we do end up kind of subtly holding other people to that standard. Maybe we don't say it out loud, but I don't. What are your thoughts around that?

Shannon Popkin [00:05:45]:

Well, again, I think it's both. You know, I do think there are times that we are so hard on ourselves, but it's really. We're hard on ourselves because we'd really like to be perfect. Like, we, we really were judging ourselves so harshly, but there's this upside down pride. It's like I, I just wish that I was the one that everyone was admiring and that was doing it all right. Or with our sin. Like, do we really believe that our sin is cared for on the cross? Like, that it is wiped clean, clean, that Jesus's blood washes us white as snow? Do we truly believe that because Jesus was judged in our place, he was the judgment of God, the wrath of God fell on Jesus and he hung on that cross out of mercy for us. And, and our God is too, just to make us pay for what Jesus has already paid for.

Shannon Popkin [00:06:36]:

Right? Yeah. He doesn't, you know, that would be, that would be a very unjust God to hold us harshly with condemnation because Jesus already paid for it.

Heather Creekmore [00:06:46]:

Right.

Shannon Popkin [00:06:46]:

And so do we believe that, you know, those of us who do judge ourselves with extreme harshness, like, do. Do I really believe that Jesus died on that cross? That he took my sin on him? And if so, then no, that, that's a misplaced shame, misplaced judgment on myself. But then I think you're right because I do think, you know, maybe there are. And I kind of waffle back and forth, you know, I oscillate between judging myself harshly. And again, it's just like this, this wounded pride of like, oh, I did it. I did something so shameful, I did it again. Or I just, I can't get it right. But then I kind of enjoy.

Shannon Popkin [00:07:32]:

And this is something, this is the part where we just don't talk about Heather.

Heather Creekmore [00:07:36]:

It's gonna be good. Everyone's turning up their volume right now.

Shannon Popkin [00:07:39]:

Yeah, well, I, there's this enjoyment that we have of other people not doing it right, you know, of other people falling. Of like, we get, I, I think we get these little judgy boosts of pride. I'm like, oh, look at them. Can you believe? Like, and we have all this disgust and contempt in our hearts and the, the finger of judgment always points down. It always points down from this elevated self exalting position. And so I think when we're judging ourselves, it's, There's a pride component, but when we're judging other people, there's also a different sort of pride component. And so in both aspects, really, I think it's, it's looking at ourselves with the right lens, the right evaluation, and then also doing that with other people. You know, it's.

Shannon Popkin [00:08:29]:

And it really requires humility.

Heather Creekmore [00:08:31]:

Yes, yes. I think, boy, I think most of our problems would be solved if we just could always be humble. Right?

Shannon Popkin [00:08:39]:

Exactly. Yeah. And I really think that that's what people are reacting to when they say, don't judge, you know, don't judge me, you know, don't. They're. What they're reacting to is the, the pride and the condescending superiority that they see in us. And it's legitimate. I think even, you know, I, I think everybody's kind of judgy. Right? The, the stats say that non believers criticize Christians for being too judgy, but I think the whole world is kind of judging.

Shannon Popkin [00:09:09]:

But I do think that non believers have a point when they look at Christians and say, you guys are so judgy, because we are, you know, we're so. But in, in that, the component that I feel like the Lord wanted me to talk about in this book, Heather, is just like that, that condescension like that, that exalting of myself. And as I, as I'm looking down at the world, and I mean, Jesus said, or Paul in First Corinthians says, what business is it of mine to judge outsiders? Don't judge those who are. Don't you. Don't. Don't you. I'm sorry, don't you Judge those who are inside. God judges outsiders.

Shannon Popkin [00:09:51]:

So look at that. We've got some categories there. We are to, you know, when we earlier we said judge with righteous judgment. But that's for. That's an inside thing. We are to look at each other's fruit and we are in like Matthew 18, we are to talk to each other when we see habitual sin. But for the world, like, that's. We got to be careful because we're told not to judge.

Shannon Popkin [00:10:13]:

And like, what are we expecting? You know, why would we expect the world to be different?

Heather Creekmore [00:10:19]:

Right. Well, it's, it's like what you said. I mean, there's absolute truth. And so we're not saying, like, oh, we'll just accept everything and, you know, it's your truth, my truth, his truth or truth. It's not that it's his truth. Right. But it's God's truth. But God's judging them.

Heather Creekmore [00:10:38]:

Right. They, you know, our, our ask, I think our, our invitation, if you will. Our command is to love. Right. And Jesus walked with sinners and talked with sinners and ate with sinners and

Shannon Popkin [00:10:56]:

truly loved his enemies.

Heather Creekmore [00:10:58]:

Yeah.

Shannon Popkin [00:10:59]:

And if we're judging those that we like and, and they're actually, they're not our enemies, they're God's enemies. Like, that's what you were. I think you were just saying is, like, the judgment is going to come from God upon them. They're God's enemies, and he wants us to love them in, you know. And so one of the things that I, I thought about as I was approaching this topic is we can get it all right. You know, like, I actually have some appendixes in the back of this book that talk about, like, which category do these or these different situations belong in? And I looked at all the teachings of Paul and Jesus and I compiled, you know, some pretty good ways to think about it. But I did that maybe 10 years ago. I studied all of the.

Shannon Popkin [00:11:44]:

Or Maybe even longer, 15 years ago, studied all the verses about judge, don't judge. And I put together this tidy little chart and I created it from my Bible study group and I handed it all out. But I think, Heather, after I got done with that, I just, I was even more judgy because now I could judge with precision who was doing it right and make sure I was doing it all right. So with that in mind, I think I wanted to come at this, looking at stories of the Bible.

Heather Creekmore [00:12:11]:

Okay.

Shannon Popkin [00:12:12]:

And so I don't want us. It's not to the exclusion of all the New Testament teachings But I wanted us to look at stories because stories help us deal with the heart of the matter. And that really is what we're. What we're. What we need to think. Think about is our heart posture. And so, you know, thinking of people, like, who are going to be judged, like, what is our heart toward them. And so, like, think about the story of the flood, you know, Noah and the flood.

Shannon Popkin [00:12:42]:

Think about all those people who got. Who were wiped away. That's what, that's the first story that I wanted to deal with in the book because it really sets up who is this judge that we all answer to, who is God? And God's response. He grieved when he looked out and saw evil spreading. And it had spread so far that there was only one left. No, Noel was the only. The only blameless, righteous man. I mean, I think maybe even in his family, like, the whole world had caved into evil and darkness.

Shannon Popkin [00:13:16]:

And. And it was just a horrible time in history. And so, you know, the. The connotation is violence. And so there's, you know, there's two sides of the sword of violence. So people were not only harsh and violent and evil in that way, but the people were getting hurt. You know, the Lord looks out and he sees all of this, and his heart was grieved. He is a judge who cries.

Shannon Popkin [00:13:40]:

You know, he's. He's got tears over what he sees. And that, I think, right there is different than what I see in a lot of judgy Christians. Yeah, yeah. I mean, he's just.

Heather Creekmore [00:13:54]:

And holy, and so he, you know, has to be true to his character, but he still cares.

Shannon Popkin [00:14:02]:

Yeah. I mean, it's like both are true. I think today people would like to say, well, no, like, we have the New Testament. The Old Testament is all about judgment and harshness, but the New Testament, look at Jesus. He's so merciful. Yes, that's true. But it's not as though we've got two halves of the story, judgment and mercy. No, it's judgment and mercy woven through the whole thing.

Shannon Popkin [00:14:28]:

That's why I wanted to start with the flood story, because this is a story of judgment. And Jesus refers back to that story, the story of the flood. And he's like, it's going to be just like that, where there are people who are going to be washed away with judgment, and they didn't even see it coming. And so he's warning them. He's warning about judgment. But if we look back at that story of the flood, don't just look at the flood waters. There's also an ark. Right? And that's the.

Shannon Popkin [00:14:56]:

That's where the whole story has the spotlight. If you. I spoke on this topic a few weeks back and I put a slide up and I showed them. Here's Genesis 6 through 9. And the black lettering, that's all the verses that have to do with the judgment of the flood and everything. But the white lettering, the, you know, the light colored font, that is all of the parts that are about the ark and the plans moving forward and the animals and the food and the construction. And I mean, that's. That's where the spotlight.

Shannon Popkin [00:15:29]:

That's where God's spotlight is on this story.

Heather Creekmore [00:15:30]:

He.

Shannon Popkin [00:15:31]:

Yes, he wants us to know that he is a God of judgment. But what has his heart, what he wants for us to know, the thing he most wants us to know is about his mercy. Look at his mercy on these people. Because what we find out at the end of the story of the flood is Noah was not this hero. He was not the savior. You know. You know, he gets drunk and. And so it's like almost we see, like, a repeat of the story of Adam where there's fruit and there's nakedness and there's shame.

Shannon Popkin [00:16:00]:

It's like it's a replay. So Noah is not the savior of the story, but Noah is shown such mercy. And. And what really makes him stand out is he's the one who walks with God. And that's. That's all of us. God doesn't give us this list of rules apart from him. He wants us to walk and talk with him and to learn a new way to live.

Shannon Popkin [00:16:21]:

But even so, we're going to fall short, just like Noah. And he makes a way with this ark. And so it's this beautiful story of judgment and mercy, yet it's the. The mercy rises above his judgment.

Heather Creekmore [00:16:33]:

Yeah, well, I'm kind of tying that back to what we were talking about just a minute ago with, like, perfectionism and really wanting to get it all right or wanting to do everything perfect and kind of. I mean, another way to say this is kind of like not wanting to need the cross in a way, because I'd rather just make sure that I could do it all myself. But I think what you just pointed out, like, the illustration from Noah is like.

Shannon Popkin [00:16:58]:

Is the walking with God. Yeah, the walking with God.

Heather Creekmore [00:17:03]:

Like that. We're still, like, caught in the, like, law. I want to do perfect. And he's saying, walk with me. Walk humbly with me. Like Micah's. Yeah, go ahead.

Shannon Popkin [00:17:14]:

That was. That was from the beginning. That was God's intention. That was his is he wanted Adam and Eve to walk with him. Look at that tree was called the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. It's like a good judgment tree, right? And he didn't give him that fruit. He kept that fruit from them because he wanted them to walk and talk with him, to have good judgment, right. And to understand wisdom in the world.

Shannon Popkin [00:17:37]:

And they. They wanted the fruit. They wanted the fruit to the exclusion of walking with God. You know, they just wanted it for themselves. They wanted the knowledge, the wisdom, the understanding apart from God. And that's where. That's the fall, right? And so the redemption has to do with returning to walking with God. I've heard it said that here in the west, if you ask somebody.

Shannon Popkin [00:18:01]:

Well, let me just ask you, Heather, how did Adam and Eve first sin? What did they do?

Heather Creekmore [00:18:08]:

Well, I think I know the right answer. They disobeyed God.

Shannon Popkin [00:18:12]:

Is that the right answer? And.

Heather Creekmore [00:18:15]:

And ate the fruit.

Shannon Popkin [00:18:16]:

Is that the fruit? That's how you look at it. But if you, if you ask somebody in the Middle east what they'll tell you. What, what did they first do? They. They stopped walking and talking with God because they're a more collectivist culture and they put more emphasis on the ways that were influenced or that we influence one another. And so we tend to think more individualistically, right? You know, and we look at Noah and we think, oh, he had this standout righteousness. That's why God gave him the plans for the ark. It's because he has this spine and he does right? And he's going to get the right outcome. But that's.

Shannon Popkin [00:18:52]:

That's not how someone with a, With a Middle Eastern mindset would look at it. They would be like, okay, everybody else has fallen to sin. The. This man has got to be influenced by. He's got to have outside help. And that's what the next verse says. Noah walked with God. But I want to go back to your point about.

Shannon Popkin [00:19:10]:

I think we do. We want to just give me the right and wrong. Give me the list, like. And in fact, I think we would prefer that to walking with Jesus today, right? Would you just tell me what's right and wrong? Like, should I homeschool? Should I public school? Should I spank my kids? Should I put them in timeout? Should I, you know, like, I'll. Give me the list. Give me. And I'll get myself to the right side of every list. You know, what's modest what's immodest? What's the right movies to watch? What's not allowed? Just give me the list, and I'll take care of it.

Heather Creekmore [00:19:40]:

Yeah.

Shannon Popkin [00:19:41]:

Versus walking and talking with Jesus. Yeah, to. To have him give us this good judgment. It was never intended for us to just know right from wrong, apart from God. It's always from within the context of this relationship. And I think we tend to judge other people based on, like, we get our lines and we know the. The right and wrong line. And then we.

Shannon Popkin [00:20:03]:

We not only maybe draw our own lines, you know, we see, okay, here's God's line, and I'm gonna back up 10ft into my line, and then I'm gonna judge the people who cross it. You and I were talking about the topic of young adults and dating because we both have young adult kids, and there's a trend right now to be super judgy about dating, like, whether or not you should be on online apps or whether or not you should date someone who. Like, these. These young adults that I know were telling me about this podcast that they listened to. And the woman, I'm sure she's just a lovely woman, and, you know, I love the ways that she's discipling these girls, but she kind of adds these, like, never date a guy who doesn't read his Bible seven days a week, like, that sort of thing. And my heart is like, well, what about the guy who, like, I think. Heather, you said your husband came to Faith as a 27?

Heather Creekmore [00:20:58]:

Yeah.

Shannon Popkin [00:21:00]:

So. And when did you meet him?

Heather Creekmore [00:21:01]:

I met him at 30.

Shannon Popkin [00:21:03]:

At 30? Yeah. And at that point, was he reading his Bible every day?

Heather Creekmore [00:21:07]:

I don't really know. I don't know. I don't know that I was reading my Bible every day.

Shannon Popkin [00:21:11]:

I know. See, I was.

Heather Creekmore [00:21:14]:

I don't think I would have that

Shannon Popkin [00:21:15]:

standard, but I think we, you know, we hold people to these standards that it's like, well, what are you tethering yourself to your list, you know, of right and wrong and, like, good judgments? Or are you tethering yourself to Jesus because Jesus may ask you to marry some guy who only reads his Bible on the weekends? You know? But is your hope. Like, where's your hope? Your hope is that, yeah, he's tethered to Jesus. He's walking and talking with the Lord. I'm walking and talking with the Lord. And that's our hope. Not that we're doing it. All right? Because I guarantee you, at the end of that marriage aisle, there are some surprises awaiting.

Heather Creekmore [00:21:52]:

Right?

Shannon Popkin [00:21:54]:

And Our hope has to be in Christ.

Heather Creekmore [00:21:57]:

Yeah. Yeah, that's really good. Well, let me just back up a second. So you wrote a book, it's called kind of judgy like and I know you explain, you know, doing outlining all the scripture for your Bible study group, but like was there something like present day that you like. I don't know, did God just like convict you of like oh, I'm being judgmental, I need to look into this or was there something going on that you were like, I just, this is what I want to write a book about.

Shannon Popkin [00:22:26]:

Yeah, well let me back up and just tell you how I grew up.

Heather Creekmore [00:22:31]:

Okay.

Shannon Popkin [00:22:31]:

So I grew up in a super fundamentalist environment. We were very aware of the lines, very aware of the people who stepped over them. I have this memory of sitting on a bus with my friends from youth group and we are processing the righteous indignation burning in our 15 year old hearts because a boy from our youth group had asked a girl from our school to a horrors a movie. And so we were just outraged because we just knew that he had blown our testimony. It was, we were outraged. Never mind that this girl was a believer, she just went to a different denomination. But you know, we, we I and I don't think we could have told you why it was wrong to go see a movie, but it was like that was one of the lines that are group that we were part of. Like we just knew that that was wrong, that that was going to ruin our testimony.

Shannon Popkin [00:23:25]:

And then now I go to see movies all the time, you know, so like if, if it's not grounded again in like what God says, that's, that's where we can go awry. And so growing up in that sort of a situation, in that sort of a context, I always knew that I was kind of judgy. I sensed it in myself and I didn't like it in myself. But I think honestly the, the more I've walked with the Lord, the more temptation there is. Right? Because now I know with, with more clarity what is right, what is wrong. You know, I'm someone who, I spend a lot, a lot of hours with my Bible open on an average day. And I can tell you all the ways and yet I just sense in my heart that there's a drift. Like I am not responding the way that Jes.

Shannon Popkin [00:24:20]:

That he did. And so I think for me looking at these stories of the Bible, it was like as I was studying the stories, the Lord was exposing those, those that heart posture. And I gotta tell you like writing the book. Oh, I have never been more tempted to judge people. Like, it's like, oh, just this intense. Like I was losing sleep. Because all the Lord, I think he tests us with our message and I think the enemy wants to, you know, come at us. I said that wrong.

Shannon Popkin [00:24:52]:

The Lord doesn't tempt. Did I say tempt? He tests us and he devil. That. Yeah, the devil tempts us. And, and I think probably both were happening. But I, in my day to day life, Heather, I have this extreme temptation to hold court in my head and list out all the ways I'm right and all the ways you're wrong. And it's. It's like fed by my pride, it's like I want to know that.

Shannon Popkin [00:25:15]:

I know that I'm doing it all right. And I really feel. Find this, like this. It's again, it's embarrassing to say, but like this boost of pride when I can show you that you're doing it all wrong now, these are not things I would say to you. It's all very private matter.

Heather Creekmore [00:25:32]:

You've just gotten to see the inside of Shannon's head right here.

Shannon Popkin [00:25:35]:

It's awful. It's awful. But, but yeah, as the Lord has exposed that, it's like, okay, I don't want to be this person that I'm becoming. And I think, you know, maybe we've all met somebody like that gets super judgy and harsh as an older person. The older we get, you know, these things tend to. To grow in our hearts. And I want to be more like Jesus. He was so, so merciful.

Shannon Popkin [00:26:00]:

He was so kind. And so that's, that's really what was on my heart. You know, I felt like maybe I'm the right person because I get it, I get it from inside those judgy circles and I, I know the temptation and I, I just am. I'm just kind of calling us to consider. Like, I think, you know, I think we're all kind of judgy, but let's have an eye on our hearts, you know, let's have an eye on what, what is happening in our hearts.

Heather Creekmore [00:26:29]:

Yeah, I mean, I think maybe the category and that you and I both fall in, but I think a lot of listeners probably fall into is like the good girl, good girl category. Yeah. Right. Where it's like, well, you know, I'd follow all the rules. Yeah, I do all the things.

Shannon Popkin [00:26:45]:

And then as the good girl, whenever you feel judged. So that's, that's probably. I should have said that earlier. What tempts me more than anything to judge is when I feel judged. I feel judged and become judgy. It's just like this chain reaction. Because you're right, I am the good girl, and everybody needs to know that, like, I'm doing it whole. Right.

Shannon Popkin [00:27:04]:

And if, if you're gonna, if you're gonna contend with that, well, then I might have some things to say about you in my courtroom.

Heather Creekmore [00:27:10]:

Right, right. Right.

Shannon Popkin [00:27:12]:

Court is adjourned. Right. We don't need to spend any more time in there. Well.

Heather Creekmore [00:27:16]:

Because we miss Grace. Right?

Shannon Popkin [00:27:19]:

Yeah. Yeah.

Heather Creekmore [00:27:20]:

Like, I mean, I think that's a hard thing for us girls.

Shannon Popkin [00:27:24]:

We good girls.

Heather Creekmore [00:27:24]:

I got my parts of speech right. But it's hard for us because it's like, well, I'm actually pretty good. Yeah.

Shannon Popkin [00:27:31]:

But there again, are we, are we, like, go reverting back to the lines versus walking with Jesus?

Heather Creekmore [00:27:38]:

Right, right.

Shannon Popkin [00:27:39]:

Because the closer we get to Jesus, the more aware of. Of our Right. Our flaws. You know, honestly, like, the, the more spiritually mature I've become, it's not as though I'm less aware of any sin in my life. No, I'm more aware. Right. It's just like, I want to be perfect, and I don't want there to ever be an experience exposing of imperfection. And so.

Shannon Popkin [00:28:00]:

But as I walk with the Lord, those things that I do, the ways, you know, like, for now, if I blow up at my husband or my kids, I can spend some serious time in just, oh, I, I. How can I be this way after all these years? I. Those are my. Those are my old ways. I want to be healed. I want to be. And, and, but that just leads me back to, look, I need mercy. Mercy is, is not receiving the judgment that I do deserve.

Shannon Popkin [00:28:29]:

And so implied and needing mercy is that I have. I'm wrong, that I have wronged, that I am wrong. So implied in that is I. I, by saying I need mercy is. There's a humility in that. And that leads me back to Jesus and it back, back to that cross where he spread his arms wide on that cross. Not because he was, you know, too weak. Some people thought he was too weak to come down from that cross, but no, he was too merciful.

Shannon Popkin [00:29:02]:

And so I just go back and I picture him with those arms wide open because he wanted to receive me. And that's. That's the beautiful story that I'm part of. So, yeah, I don't want to be this good girl who doesn't need mercy. I want it. Right. Right. That's like the Pharisees.

Shannon Popkin [00:29:18]:

That's. That's absolutely.

Heather Creekmore [00:29:20]:

Yeah.

Shannon Popkin [00:29:20]:

I was a fantastic Pharisee.

Heather Creekmore [00:29:23]:

I know I was.

Shannon Popkin [00:29:24]:

But.

Heather Creekmore [00:29:24]:

But to what you said about the closer you walk with the Lord, the more you see your sin. My husband and I were in marriage counseling for a long time, and one of the times the counselor set us free because there were, you know, seasons where it's like, yeah, you've kind of gone as far as you can go right now. He said to us, we were like, well, how are we going to know? Like, when we've arrived, how are we going to know we're enjoying it? Right? And he's like, well, you'll know you've matured when your own sin bothers you more than the sin of your spouse. Wow. And so that has been, like, just, you know, key, because I think to go back to judgment, right. Like, he had had a whole army of judges and juries in. Inside my head. I mean, I think my husband probably was the recipient of most of my judgment for at least the first decade of marriage.

Heather Creekmore [00:30:16]:

Just like, you didn't do this, right? You didn't do this, right? You didn't. Like, I can't believe you would do that. And you can do that. And, you know, and of course, you know, I let myself off free for all those things, but I kept a big scorecard for him. And so, yeah, I mean, that. That was the stop me in my tracks moment for, like.

Shannon Popkin [00:30:33]:

Okay, no, no, that's hypocrisy, isn't it? It's judging somebody for the very things that I do. And I mean, can I really say, you know, I'll get at him for being messy. Messy or. Right. Not being on time. But can I really say that I'm not messy and that I'm late? No.

Heather Creekmore [00:30:50]:

Yeah.

Shannon Popkin [00:30:51]:

And so that's. That is hypocrisy. And. And it's also like the judging of the superficiality, that's another thing that we're warned against. Are we, you know, are we just judging? Are we assuming that we know somebody's heart, right, based on. On the superficial thing that we see? Like, we're so quick to judge their motives and their, you know, like, that they weren't thinking of us or. I'm talking husbands, but. And do we really know as much as we think we know about people and the ways that we, you know, when we're holding court? Actually, while I was writing the book, you know, I told you, I was so just undone by my temptation to judge or to feel judged.

Shannon Popkin [00:31:34]:

And. And the Lord really prompted a lot of things that I needed to go back and think through and deal with a lot of situations, you know, as I studying and writing. And one of them was a friendship that I had had with a woman. Her name is Renee. We'd been dear friends when our kids were little. And then probably about 10 or 15 years ago, I had invited her to be on my prayer team because I go out and speak, and I have people praying for me. And I. She didn't.

Shannon Popkin [00:32:04]:

She didn't respond. And so she, you know, she wasn't going to be on the team. And in my heart, I'm thinking, like, what? Like, I thought we were friends, you know, like, apparently. Apparently not. And then I started doing that courtroom thing. I'm like, I know why. I know why. I know why she doesn't want to be it.

Shannon Popkin [00:32:21]:

Because in her heart and mind, she is thinking, who does Shannon think she is? Speaking, writing, you know, who does she think she is? She knows me. She knows, like, I'm just an average girl. Like, who does she think she is? And so then I started thinking, like, I don't know if we're really that great of friends. And I just. Like, I. I just pulled back. And then I just pulled back a little more, and life got busy and. And I look like many, many times I've gone back to that in my mind of, like, her not choosing to be on that prayer team and judging what I thought I knew.

Shannon Popkin [00:32:53]:

I thought I knew what she was saying and thinking. And I was convicted. I was like, I never even gave her a chance to defend her that thought or idea, like, right to respond to it. And so I did a very hard thing, and I sent her a text message, and I said, I. I need to apologize. I have judged your heart and your motives. And, you know, back when I asked you to be on that prayer team, I've assumed that this is what you were thinking and saying, and I just confess that to you. And I said, you can.

Shannon Popkin [00:33:23]:

You can respond if you want. You don't have to. It is so far in the past, but I just know the Lord has convicted my heart of this. Well, Heather, she texted me back within, like, 30 seconds. Okay. Shannon, oh, my goodness. I am so glad you reached out, because I have never, ever once in my heart judged like you that way. I think it's great what you're doing.

Shannon Popkin [00:33:42]:

I've never had one negative thought about it, and I'm so glad you asked me, because, no, that is not what I was thinking. She goes, I thought I was on the prayer team. What happened? She was like, I just, you know, I don't. Maybe I missed an email or something and oh, my goodness, I started crying and I picked up the phone and called her and we had this amazing conversation where it was like, I am so, so sorry that I judged you. Like, judged, you know, the superficial. I judged your heart. Right. I didn't know those things.

Shannon Popkin [00:34:11]:

I didn't know you were thinking those things. And she was just like, it's okay. I'm just glad we could talk about it. And like, we've kind of, you know, the Lord has re. Just given us this, this refresh on our friendship. And she and her husband were both empty nesters. They came and stayed for us with us for a weekend. And it's precious, and I'm so happy about that.

Shannon Popkin [00:34:34]:

But I'm also like, just. I have this sadness of, like, how many things have I missed because of the judgment and the contempt that I hold in my heart for other people, including my husband. Right. Or my kids or any. Anyone. And so, man, I just, I want to be free of that.

Heather Creekmore [00:34:51]:

Yeah. And Shannon, I mean, what a great story. Because I think anyone who at the beginning of this, this episode, if they stuck around after deciding they weren't judgy, hearing that story, you're like, oh, oh, I've. I've assigned motives. I didn't consider that judgy. Oh, but yes, you're right. That is just another way to say it, isn't it? Like, oh, yeah, yeah.

Shannon Popkin [00:35:15]:

That's powerful.

Heather Creekmore [00:35:16]:

Well, hey, as we wrap up here today, tell us about kind of judgy like you, you said a little bit like, we kind of go through some Bible stories, but just like, what's your heart for this book? And like, who needs to read it?

Shannon Popkin [00:35:27]:

Yeah. Well, we are looking at finding mercy for myself and for other people. So that's really like you brought up that, that harsh judgment that we have for ourselves, and we find both of those in, in the story, both the overarching story of the Bible. But I think these six stories that we look at, there's three from the Old Testament and three from the New Testament. And both. And all of them have just judgment and mercy woven through them. But with each story, we've got a different lens where we're kind of looking at this from a different angle. And I do, I just think stories package up such good truth in a way that accesses our hearts versus just the right and wrong.

Shannon Popkin [00:36:06]:

Because I think, you know, when we're being kind of judgy we just want to know those lines and you know, like, just get me on the right side of the line. But these stories don't allow that sort of response. You know, they kind of mess with our hearts and, and that's really, I think, think helpful for us. So. Yeah, so the, the, the characters that I looked at or the Bible stories were the Flood, Noah and then Rahab, Jonah, the Simon, the Pharisee and then the blind man and then the thief on the cross. So they're beautiful stories. I enjoyed it so much writing this book and I mean, every chapter I was just undone by. But yeah, I'd love for you to pick up a copy.

Shannon Popkin [00:36:49]:

And we've got a leader's guide of different resources for you. There's a kind of judgy quiz if you're, you know.

Heather Creekmore [00:36:58]:

Oh, tell us where to find that. Everyone wants a quiz. Yeah. Where do we find the quiz?

Shannon Popkin [00:37:02]:

Yeah, well, you can, we can maybe give a direct link, but it's at my site, shannon.com forward slash judgy.

Heather Creekmore [00:37:09]:

Okay.

Shannon Popkin [00:37:09]:

You can find all the stuff. But yeah, take the quiz. And then once you take the quiz, you have this little heart check that I'll send you that you can keep on your phone or print out and it really will get at some of those heart level questions that we all need to be processing.

Heather Creekmore [00:37:22]:

I love that. Well, and your book is, it's out this week, so you go grab one at Amazon. I haven't gotten to read this one yet, which I normally like to read before the interviews. But I'm just going to tell you listeners that I endorse anything by Shannon Popkin. It's all good. So she's written about control in comparison too. And it's all good. So I know that this is going to be a great resource.

Heather Creekmore [00:37:46]:

So Shannon, thank you for being on the show today.

Shannon Popkin [00:37:49]:

It was my pleasure. Thanks for having me and thank you

Heather Creekmore [00:37:52]:

for watching or listening. I hope something today has helped you stop comparing and start living. Bye. Bye.